Engine - transmission

[Hans Grasman]

Yesterday after I started the engine, I reversed out of the slip and when I shifted in forward the transmission did not engage.
After a few moves into neutral, reverse and forward it did catch and we motored out of the harbor.
After a great sail I started the engine and it again did not catch into forward.
I moved back into neutral, reverse and back to forward and it again slowly caught on.

Both situations lasted about 2 minutes.

Checked transmission fluid and it was on the correct level.

Any suggestions from our group ?

Thank you

[KenKrawford]

Hans,

I think you're going to have to follow the linkage all the way from the pedestal to the transmission so see where the problem is. I'd start at the engine/transmission first since that's the easiest. It may be something as simple as manually putting the shifter in neutral and have someone at the pedistal shift into forward and reverse so see if there is some slipage where the cable attaches to the transmission.
Your other option is to call Edson first and talk with their tech support people for a troubleshooting plan. The model number of our pedestal is 910-SL3-TAPER. Their tech support number is (508) 995-9711.

Good luck and let us know what you find.

[Ray Edwards]

Don't want to cause you concern and agree with first checking out your linkage but next issue may be your "damper plate" located in the bell housing. When I had a simlar issue with the transmission engaging in forward SLOWLEY but would engage in reverse immediately my problem was the damper plate.
A tell tale sign of my problem was a fine gray dust in the engine compartment on the left side (looking at your engine toward stern, this dust was escaping from the bell housing and at first thought it was belt dust (I had just replaced the belt earlier). When I could finally got to a location to fix the problem (I was in no mans land along the Georgia ICW) the damper plate was totally destroyed and I had to replace the transmission also ----- not sure if my problem started with the transmission or damper plate?
A check of the transmission would be to draw some trans fluid out and check for any GOLD FLICKS floating, a sure sign of wear.
Cost of a new damper plate is less than $200 if you do the work yourself ---- a transmission is in the two thousand $$$ range unless you are able to have rebuilt.
Lots of luck to you

Ray Edwards
C350 #293
"Maria"

[Hans Grasman]

Thank you Ken and Ray,
I have had black dust around the belt area and believed it to be from the belt. Had that since I bought the boat 6 years ago.
Have not seen gray dust.
I am going to replace the transmission fluid and check for "gold flicks". Maybe I find $2000. worth of gold flicks that would pay for a new transmission.
Will get back to this site later.
Thanks guys !

[Hans Grasman]

Just changed the transmission fluid. Was dark red no residue or gold flakes.
Also started engine and moved gear shift while tied in slip. Easily moved from neutral to forward and back to reverse.

So I think this is a little above my pay scale (soc.sec) and will call a reliable mechanic here in SW Fl.
Engine has 650 hrs and could use a professional checkup.

Thanks for your assistance. If you do not hear from me by next week I probably expired from the shock of a new transmission.

[Hans Grasman]

According to the mechanic my transmission fluid was not at the right level and when you fill it too high the transmission fluid will
get warm and airbubbles appear which creates problems with the transmission.
So bottom line is "yours truly" was the source of the problem.
The mechanic told me to lower the transmission fluid level and call him again next week after I take out the boat.

No charge and take 2 aspirin

Wil lsend a followup message on the procedure.

[KenKrawford]

Hans, I'm glad that's all it was. It seems that my problems always have 2 or 3 zeros after them !

[Ray Edwards]

Congrads for being able to find what your potential problem is / was
------- I always had problems in checking the fluid levels using the dip stick because fluild is so transparent that it was hard to see the level so what I did was mark a small diameter wood dow rod using the dip stick markings as a pattern then when checking fluid level the wood rod would have a "wet look" at the fluild level. Also when changing the fluid pump out the old into a glass jar, mark the jar at the old level pumped out then dispose of the old, fill the jar to my mark with new then pour back into transmission.
My engine is pushing the three thousand (3000) hour mark and according to my records have changed fluid four times in old transmission and once since installing new one.

Ray Edwards
C350 #293
"Maria"

[Allsail]

Interesting posts as i have a question re tr fluid levels since boat was purchsed and the fluid level checked high the first time with no additions.

The universal op manual calls for .59 quarts. I removed and added that amount and it still checked high.

When i checked with ZF Marine tech people they said it should be .61. And while they did not recommend over filling, they saw no real significant issue as it was not under significant pressure. So i felt it better/safer a little over rather than under. I also assumed, but not sure, that eng inclination would cause higher readings a back of sump where dip stick sits and therefore really not high as was adding the specified amount of fluid.

Wonder if others have had the same or similar experience.

Allen Barnes #326

[DuncanMcMillan]

We started to lose forward speed on a recent trip until boat was basically stopped. Having got back to the dock , which is a whole other story, I drained the old transmission fluid which was very black. I then flushed the transmission with nice clean oil and ran for 3 mins. drained again and filled her up with the pink stuff. The transmission sounds great and at the dock I seem to have forward and reverse power. The linkage all looks good and the propeller is still in place and in good shape.
Before casting off and without opening up the transmission is there any way to measure the power going to the prop.

[AynB]

DuncanMcMillan, We had a rather similar issue come up last cruising season and it turned out to be the thrust washer in the transmission. The way that the transmission is designed is that in forward gear, the prop pushes against this thrust washer, slowly eroding it. When the washer is eroded enough, it prevent forward gear engagement. No amount of fluid change will make a difference. Solution: new transmission. Prevention: change the transmission fluid EVERY time you change your engine oil!

Anecdotally speaking: the folks that did the replacement work told us plainly that they have had clients with the same transmission go out in under 100 hours. Warranty is for 500 hours. They have had one client that is on his 5th transmission, all replaced under warranty. The company that makes the tranny is now an internationally owned conglomerate ( Italy ) and now makes a "new" model of the gear, however it has the same design flaw as the original.

We have about 50 hours on the new transmission and are holding our breath.

Good luck to you.
Al

[DuncanMcMillan]

Thanks Al, much appreciated.
After seeking professional opinion we gave it the old college try. Ran her at the dock in reverse and forward and tried pulling her back with the dock line when we got to 2000rpm.
Seemed strong so we decided to try a short sea trial. Reverse was fine but when popped into forward she barely made way . Of course we had got out of the marina before it became clear she was done.
Contemplated sailing back in for about 5 minutes but not a breath of wind and my common sense also kicked in so we switched the fenders and lines and backed her in for the first time with a crosswind and narrow channel. This part was a great success thanks to the Admiral being smart enough to stay on the dock with a line we had measured to act as the brake. She just slipped it over the mid cleat and strolled up to the forward line. I stepped off with stern line.
Next day the transmission was pulled and rebuilt . New drive plate was also required. Thrust washers all gone.
Getting it out was ok but then more complicated and getting it back in was the same.
I spoke to the mechanic after and he specifically told me we should change the fluid in 25 hours because of filings after rebuild. I don't think he was looking for more hours because he suggested I could do it and after that we can probably go 50 hours before changing.
Sounds real smooth and sail day Saurday. Expensive lesson on critical maintenance which won't be overlooked again.

[AynB]

Glad our wee bit of wisdom helped out.
We also changed the oil after 25 hrs, then have changed it with EVERY engine oil change.
Before you do the 25 hour change, get yourself a few of the crushable washers - hard to come by and you will want to drain that first fluid change from the bottom, not just sucking it out. All the filings will be in the lower sump and sucking just won't catch them. If you don't replace the crushable washer you will have a leak - guaranteed - ask your mechanic.
I "made" a tool to allow me to drain from the lower plug, mostly extensions and a flare nut crows foot to grab the plug. My arms just won't do the job in the small space otherwise - if you need a photo of the tool, lemme know.
Just too small a pool of fluid for the heat, so changing it often is the only solution.
Wishing you many hours on the new gearbox.
Al

[PHerzfeld]

Pictures would be great!

As an owner who doesn't have a lot mechanical experience but wants to learn, can someone post any pictures of the parts and/or processes described? I don't know where these washers are located... Also is there a book that anyone can recommend for a newbie to learn how to do these maintenance tasks?

[AynB]

First book that I'd recommend is Nigel Calders " Boatowners mechanical and Electrical handbook" . Whereas it is not Catalina specific, it is a must have book.
Attached is the image of the tool that I use to get access to the bottom sump plug.
As for the washers, they go between the two ( top and bottom ) plugs and the body of the gearbox. They are not "normal" washers - rather they are made of a sintered metal that crushes down when you tighten the plug and thus make the seal. That's why they are a one use only item. I got by, for a bit, with some high temperature engine silicone to make the seal, but got a proper washer in place ASAP.
al

[AynB]

One more point... that is not a standard crowsfoot wrench - it is a Flarenut Crowsfoot. If you look closely, you will see that there are two small "teeth" that are machined into the opening of the wrench - that is so it will grip all six sides of the Flarenut - usually pretty soft brass and easily deformable if you used a standard wrench. As the plugs are made of aluminum, and the position you have to get the wrench into to do the job is difficult - anything that would keep the wrench on the plug is most welcome.
al

[PHerzfeld]

Thanks! In addition to that book are there any specific to Catalinas?

[KenKrawford]

Al, did you get your crush washers at an auto supply store or a marine supplier?

[DuncanMcMillan]

Thanks again Al. I agree draining from bottom is the correct approach. The local folks are running some marine diesel hands on classes this winter so I'm looking forward to going back to school.
So far I've not been able to see any drawings on the internet.
I'll look for the flarenut crowsfoot and the washers

[AynB]

Ken, I got four "near matches" from a Honda dealership and got two "almost perfect" from a marine dealership, the one that did the gearbox replacement. Seems that the actual machining on the gearbox is of such a tolerance, that the Honda ones did not quite fit right, and the marine ones were a tad on the small side.
I mean, what 'cha gonna do when the transmission is made in Europe ?
Liberally use goop! That's what.
I have two left over in my small parts box. Guarding them jealously

al