Engine stopped running

[belladonna]

I have read most all posts on this forum relative to engine failure, but I still have a problem, and questions?? My 2005 Universal 35B has run fine for the 12+ years that I have owned the boat until Thursday. Heading up the Delaware Bay in tolerable conditions, the engine sputtered to a stop. Several attempts to restart resulted in 30-45 sec run times. Thinking it was a fuel issue I managed to change the Racor filter (boat bouncing around in wind and waves). The bowl and filter were full of fuel with no indication of debris but still no continuous running. Removing the ladder and front engine cover in the existing weather would have been a hazard so I called TowBoatUS that towed us to the closet marina which happened to have a repair facility. The next day a mechanic came down and blew-back the fuel line into the tank to eliminate any trash/debris/etc. in the fuel from that point with no success. After checking a couple of other fuel issues, the decision was made to replace the electrical lift pump. After this and a couple of other adjustments, the engine would start and run 30-45 sec as before. Next step was to replace the on-engine filter which was full and the fuel clean. Still the same results. Tomorrow the mechanic will check all hoses, fittings, clamps, etc. from the fuel tank supply hose to the engine side of the secondary filter. If no luck next step may be replacing the injection pump which I'm told almost never fails. I'm running up quite a repair bill here so I'm thinking the "just replace parts approach" may not be what the doctor ordered but we're already beyond my engine expertise. Any help or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. As a side bar which fitting/hose on the tank is the fuel supply knowing the other one is the return?
Thanx, Jim

[KenKrawford]

Jim, it sound like you have check/replaced the obvious stuff. These are low probability suggestions but have you checked the fuel tank vent for obstructions? Any idea what the fuel in the tank looks like? It might be worth removing the fuel gauge from the tank and peeking inside to see if there's a lot of crud/debris inside. Lord know why Westerbeke puts the primary fuel filter AFTER the fuel pump. If there's lots of crud in the tank there's a screen inside the fuel pump that can clog up. Also have you checked the fuel shut off valve and made sure it's fully open?

[belladonna]

Hi Ken, thanx for your response and suggestions. When this situation first started, I took the fuel fill cap completely off to ensure the tank was getting air/venting with no success (where is the actual fuel tank vent located). I will try removing the fuel gauge probe from the tank next. On my engine (Universal 35B) the fuel lift pump is after the Racor primary filter, so the pump is getting filtered (first step) fuel. We're all fairly certain that the problem is fuel related but others have suggested it could be a clogged manifold and/or mixing elbow riser thus not allowing sufficient engine exhaust discharge or perhaps a clogged engine air intake blockage. As of now I guess anything is possible.
Thanx again,Jim

[wolfe10]

Assume you have confirmed that the engine/fuel kill cable is properly adjusted so the fuel supply is not shut off/intermittently shut off. If in doubt, recheck or even disconnect it to test.

And, next time it starts and dies (at least that is the set up on the 2003 350) remove the 12 VDC positive lead to the fuel pump and touch it to the "always hot' lug of the solenoid/relay next to it. Pretty easy to tell if it is pumping air (high RPM) or fuel (lower RPM). BTW, that is exactly how I prime the system after changing fuel filters.

[scott.monroe]

Hi All,

Has the oil pressure switch been checked? Turning the key over activates the preheat solenoid and provide power directly to the fuel pump for engine start. That will give enough pressure in the fuel lines to start the engine and keep it going for a few seconds. Once the key is released and you start the engine the oil pressure switch (when it gets to pressure) provides current path to the fuel lift pump to continue its role (idea is that if engine looses oil pressure it will automatically shut down). If a wire is loose/broken or the oil pressure switch has failed I would expect the engine would run a seconds and then shut off.

If the engine starts and runs it is not likely the injection pump has failed. Also the secondary fuel filter on the engine is there to protect the injection pump and that is why it has such a small rating (2 um I believe). Your primary should always be a bigger filter (10 um+) otherwise the secondary doesn't do anything.
Also, is there any smoke when the engine runs or was last running?

Good luck,
Scott

[scott.monroe]

Just one correction, different from what I drew, power to the oil pressure switch comes from the "I" on the ignition switch not from the Exc on the alternator. That power from the ignition also energizes the alternator (exc) and provides power to the buzzer for the low oil pressure. If you do hear the buzzer when you start the engine then there should be power from that circuit. So you could rule out lack of power reaching the oil pressure switch as a source of your problem.

[belladonna]

Thanx to everyone for your very helpful ideas and suggestions. I have tried, checked and in some cases replaced everything you suggested. I have 2 follow-up questions if you'll be so kind to address:

1) on my boat the key switch in the 2 o'clock position energizes the engine circuits as well as the electrical lift pump, turning and holding the key to the say 3 o'clock position turns on the preheat, all of this seemingly working well at the dock. However, I think I remember in the 2 o'clock position the warning buzzer would energize until the engine starts BUT there is no warning buzzer activation now. In fact, after leaving a dock the engine ran fine for 3 hours with the buzzer blaring loudly BUT then the engine sputtered to a stop the first time. Afterwards it would start, run for 30-45 sec and sputter to a stop. This event was last Thursday when over the course of 4 days the fuel was blown-back through to the tank with no resistance. Removing the fuel gauge probe reveled a clean tank from was I could see. Then replacement of both the Racor filter and secondary on-engine filter, some hoses and fittings, the fuel lift pump and solenoid. Also, direct fuel feed to the injection pump with the engine running fine.
Leaving that dock (after 4 days) where all of these issues were addressed, we headed to our next destination and after 3 hours of perfect engine running at 2400 rpm the exact situation unfolded again, and we were towed (by the same TowBoatUS captain who was awesome) to another marina.

2) which hose going into the tank is the supply hose, the forward or aft one??

Thanx again folks, y'all are the best,

Jim

[D&M]

on my boat the key switch in the 2 o'clock position energizes the engine circuits as well as the electrical lift pump

The electrical lift pump should only receive 8 volts at this point (check) and should not run (This is the "I" position in the doco). 4 volts is dropped across the buzzer circuit, this is by design. At the 3 oclock called "S" in the doco, the lift pump operates powered by the glow plug solenoid circuit, but only when the key is held in this position. After this it returns to the "I" and the pulse alarm should silence as the engine starts. Note that when you hold the key in the glow plug position, you are putting 12 volts into the P circuit of the buzzer. This is why it the buzzer stops when you move it to this position. IE you have 12v on the + side and the P side of the buzzer (= no voltage diff so no buzzer).
Once the engine is up to pressure then the oil switch closes and provides a continuous 12v to the lift pump (and the P term of the buzzer, hence silence).

In essence running for 30-45 secs to me indicates the lift pump operates when you operate the glow plugs, but then 12volts is lost to the lift pump after engine start and you have released the glow plug switch. (So fuel is gradually lost) Perhaps the oil switch has an intermittent failure, or you have a loose connection on the oil switch, I suggest you change it out. (It is a normally open 2 pin switch).

Edit - additional information:
If you pull the buzzer out of the circuit put a quality digital volt meter across the buzzer, it should read 4 volts from + to P. If not put your ohm meter across it. If it is shorted it will say zero ohms and explain why you have no buzzer when the key is in the "I" position. If it fails open then it will be an open circuit. You can also, with the buzzer out of the circuit, put 12v to the + and ground the P. You should then get the pulsing tone (loudly).
If the buzzer works out of circuit but not in circuit, then it is reasonable to assume there is no power from the "I"switch to the oil switch or the buzzer because of a poor connection. Put a multimeter on the output side of the key switch first (should be 12 volts). If so move to the multi gang terminal connector in the pedestal. Needs 12v on the other side of the terminal connector (red/white wire). After that check the other end of that wire at the oil pressure switch and so on.... Good luck.

[russp]

Great explanation, thanks David. I "sort" of understood how that circuit worked, but the way you explained it made it much clearer.

Regards

[belladonna]

WOW, what informative posts and suggestions/recommendations; my sincere thanx to everyone. Since several of you have mentioned the oil pressure switch (weird that the mechanic did not) I found and checked it out. One of the prongs (blades) on the switch was completely broken off and was still lodged in the spade connector. So, I ordered and had overnight shipped a switch from Discount Marine Source (they have an awesome supply of 35B parts). It was truly a challenge to get the old (original) one out but after a few choice words and hand cuts I succeeded. Getting the new one in was just as bad as well as getting that broken spade out of the connector. BUT the engine stared right up, ran perfectly and for 8 hours at 2500 rpm to our next destination where we are currently docked waiting for a line of TS's to past. The only problem that remains is that before all of this started, the buzzer would sound in the 2 o'clock position until the engine started and go away in the 3 o'clock (preheat) position. Now the buzzer doesn't come on at all, in either position of the switch. How do I trouble-shoot that?? Also is the hose from the forward connection on the fuel tank, the supply or return line??
Thanx again to everyone,
Jim

[D&M]

Hi Jim,
My earlier post covers most of the issues re the buzzer. Importantly, with the battery switch on You should have 12+v at the B term of the ignition switch. If you then move to the first detente (2 oclock) you are then powering the engine gauges and the alarm buzzer (IE the key switch connects the B term to the I term). The alarm buzzer should come on at this point and only at this point. You are feeding 12 volts to it's positive terminal and it is being "grounded" via the P term. The P term at this point can "ground" either via the lift pump or the 1kw resistor attached to the 10 amp breaker. The reason this resistor exists is to put a load on the circuit, you cannot attach the P term direct to "ground" as it should still have 8 volts on it at this point. That 8 volts needs to be used up prior to the circuit going to "ground", if you connect the P term direct to "ground" it would be at zero volts and thus the buzzer cannot function (edit: function as part of the circuit meaning it goes from 8v to 12v after engine start).
Complex when you write about it, but logical in electrical terms.

How do you test the buzzer: Disconnect it from all points and put 12 volts on the + terminal and connect the P terminal to the neg of the 12v supply. It should pulse loudly at this point. Likewise you should connect 12 volts to the + terminal and connect the C terminal to the negative terminal and it should give a loud continuous tone. (The P stands for Pulse tone and the C stands for continuous tone.)
If it does not sound it is defective and should be replaced. The problem is you do not know without testing, if your buzzer is shorted open or closed. If it is shorted closed, it will probably provide 12v to the lift pump in the I position. If it is shorted open it will not provide voltage to the lift pump and thus you should lose fuel shortly after start due to the key being returned from the S (glow plug) position to the I position for normal running. (Assuming your oil pressure switch has also failed open as it had in your case with a bad connector.)

I am thinking in your case (and in emergency only, would have killed your glow plugs) you could have held the switch in the S position and the engine would not have shut off!

For everyone, do not use your boat continuously with a defective buzzer, you don't know the electrical state of your fuel pump in this case and how it is being powered, until your wiring fails. If you don't know how are you going to fix a failure. As we all know, diesel engines require clean fuel and clean air, that's all.

BTW I use "ground" like that because it is not a ground. It is a negative path back to the battery negative terminal. It is just connected to it by a dirty big resistor called the engine block. In a nutshell all electricity starts at the battery and returns to the battery to complete the circuit. If anyone thinks they can ground an electrical circuit by connecting the neg terminal to the engine block, go ahead and try it. Disconnect the neg battery terminal and ground any 12 volt load to the engine block or any other ground. Result - complete failure, no such thing as a ground in DC electricity.

[D&M]

Need to post a correction to my June 26 post when I said

This is why it the buzzer stops when you move it to this position. IE you have 12v on the + side and the P side of the buzzer (= no voltage diff so no buzzer).

. I need to check this but in examining the circuit again, it makes more sense for the I term to be isolated when you move the key switch to the S position (glow plug). Thus in fact you would then have 0 volts at the + term and 12 volts at the P term. The result is however the same, no buzzer in the glow plug position. Apologies for the confusion.

BTW I have a spare new lift pump and checking it today shows it has 30k ohms of resistance at rest and uses 1.5 amps when running (no fuel load). So the parallel resistance for the lift pump circuit and the 1kw resistor comes to 970 ohms.

[belladonna]

David - I tested the buzzer per your directions and it is bad. So how do you get it out of the panel (there in no clamp or U bracket holding it in) and where can I get a new buzzer??
Thanx, Jim

[KenKrawford]

Jim, it's been so long since I replaced mine and I don't remember how it fastened. Is there a threaded ring on the inside?? Here's what I replaced mine with - https://www.alliedelec.com/product/icc- ... /70115827/

[belladonna]

Thanx Ken - I have ordered a buzzer from Catalina Direct (probably cost more than from your source) and according to pics shown with it, the outside ring which you see on the front side of the panel unscrews from the main body of the buzzer which is behind the panel. Hope I can get my ring off without destroying the already brittle instrument panel.
Cheers, Jim

[D&M]

Sorry just saw this. Yes you just unscrew the plastic outer cover from the front of the panel and the buzzer drops out the back. Should be fairly robust.

[Olivia Mae]

Concerning the plastic instrument panel, Rick Kremel from the Catalina 350 Facebook group had several made custom from stainless he then had powder coated white. He's selling off the spares. Major improvement. I'm finally able to seal it to the pedestal with butyl tape.

The ring on the outside of the buzzer does unscrew with some difficulty. I had to warm mine up with a heat gun to remove the ring.

Here's a link to Ricks Facebook post about the panel. The one I got from him fit perfectly on our 2003.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1888773 ... 6/?app=fbl