Target Speeds/Polar Diagram

[TBOT422]

Does anyone know where we can get a polar diagram or target speed table for the C350?

We're new to the C350 and trying to become better performance sailors. We're truly novice performance sailors, but from what I read a polar chart could give us a target boat speed for any particular wind condition. If we're sailing at 45 degrees into a 10 Kn wind, what boat speed should we be able to get? Would 40 degrees or 50 degrees produce a better VMG? If we're supposed to be able to get 4.5 Kn in those conditions and are our boat speed is only 3.2 Kn, then we know we are not doing as well as we could and need to start making adjustments to sail trim, balance, etc. to see what improvements we can make. On the other hand, if we're getting 4.2 Kn then we might assume we're doing nearly as best as we can.

Thanks

[Triumph]

Polars are usually available for racing boats not our cruising hulls. I'll call and ask Catalina, Gerry Douglas would be the only one to know. I've developed Polars for two other boats that I have raced on, but have no plans to do this for our Catalina 350.

Bill
s/v TRIUMPH

[TBOT422]

Hi Bill,

A Polar diagram might not be necessary. I am just looking for a way to determine whether we are getting all (at least the most) that we can out of our 350 in various conditions. It seemed like a polar diagram might be a measuring stick that we could use. We've only been sailing for about 6-7 years and most of those were on a Hunter 33 and 36 which is a completely different sail plan than a Catalina 350. We've only entered a couple of races since buying The Best of Times last spring and DNF both times waaaay behind the rest of the group. We seem to be getting about 90% of what the other boats in the fleet can get. Maybe they are just faster designs than the Catalina 350, and maybe we just don't know how to get what we can get out of our 350. I suspect the latter is the most likely case. The 'fleet' is a small group of 6-8 boats ranging from 30-38 feet. In our last race (Valentine's race limited to a crew of 2), we had a great start crossing the starting line first, then proceeded to watch every one else pass us. The second leg was about 5 miles downwind with only 4-6 knots of wind. I really struggle in those conditions. After clearing the third mark and heading back to the pass, the wind picked up to about 22 knots on a close reach. We maintained our solid last place position, but the damage was already done with most of the other boats roughly a mile ahead.

We have no intentions of ever being serious "racers", we just race to learn how to be more efficient cruisers. Besides, sometimes racing puts you in a situation where you might otherwise not be and you gain experience and comfort in being able to deal with it when things get a little bumpy while cruising. And then, of course, there is the party afterwards!

I know you live just on the other side of the "Bay", possibly we could go sailing together some time and you could give us some pointers on how to sail the 350. If you need some inexperienced crew for a race some time, send me a private message.

Thanks

[wolfe10]

Gary,

Did you post how you finished comparing actual times, OR corrected times per PHRF or other recognized rating system? If PHRF, what was your rating?

Do you have furling main? Do you have fixed two or three blade prop? What jib?

Brett

[TBOT422]

Brett,

We didn't finish so we didn't really have a corrected time. The race was about 14 miles (triangular course) in the Gulf of Mexico off Fl west coast. A very light breeze to start with that ended with a 22 knot wind. We don't have an 'official' PHRF yet, so the club gave us a 223. Although when you don't finish it really doesn't matter.

The winning boat (actual and corrected) was a Morgan 32 (PHRF 241) with an actual time of 3:59:27 followed by a Morgan 30 (PHRF 239) and a Morgan 38 (PHRF 211). Actually the Morgan 38 finished a couple of minutes ahead of the Morgan 30. All 3 were within 5-6 minutes of each other. A Catalina 30 (PHRF 247) finished in about 4:20. I estimated that we were 20-30 minutes behind them at that point (40-50 minutes behind the winners). The Catalina 30 had an awful start, yet still made up the ground and passed us on the long down wind leg. It had been a long day due to the light winds early on, and things were getting choppy, so we let the committee boat head in instead of waiting around for us just to get an official time. (We didn't want to infringe on happy hour!)

We have the furling main with the standard 135 jib, fixed 3-blade prop.

As I said we have no intentions of becoming really serious racers. Our approach to racing is to see how we can get better. I figure if we could improve our performance by about 10%, we could at leasts finish within sight of the other boats. I seem to have problems in light winds heading downwind. In light winds (4-6 knots), I don't seem to be able to keep the 135 genoa full when we're headed downwind more than 140 degrees off the wind. When we head that far off course, we are traveling much further than the rest of the fleet, and with the light winds, we are just creeping along at 1.5 to 2.5 knots. Do that for 5 miles and everyone else is 20 to 30 minutes ahead of us.

So far both races we have been in had the same light wind conditions on the down wind leg. I'm looking forward to a race where we actually have enough wind to keep the sails full all day and see how we do in those conditions.

Thanks

[wolfe10]

Gary,

Do you have a wisker pole to wing out the jib on those DDW legs? Were others winging out the jib? Used larger sails? Used spinnakers?

Downwind in 4-6 knots actual wind speed is NEVER any fun! Were it summer, that would be called a "Bob and Bake" and would take a lot of beer at the end to recharge.

One thing I would suggest is to see if you can get an accomplished sailor/racer to go with you on your boat in the next race. Like taking a cram course in racing!

Should be lots of them in the St Pete/Tampa area.

Brett

[Triumph]

Good input Brett. I am a racer on OBPs. I do race TRIUMPH in the True Cruising Class at the Tampa Sailing Squadron regattas against some pretty tough competition. At the Gasparilla Regatta Feb 4 we finished 4th out of 8 boats. Beaten by a CSY 44, an Erikson 38, and by a wisker by a Beneteau 361. We beat a Sabre 36, a Hunter 340, a Irwin Citation 34, and one other. Winds were 13-18 knots, 12 mile Random Leg Course.

He's the bottom line; the Catalina 350 is a fat butt comforable crusing boat. I race mine with a PHRF of 226. You can see my rating on WFPHRF website. I do not believe that we can race to our rating in light air. We need 15+ knots to get our fat butts rolling along, particularly off the wind. I also believe that our roller furling mains hurt us in lighter air. In strong air, we can drive the boat with most of the power in the jib and do better. We have a 144% jib that is not high cut. As Brett suggests, you've got to have that wisker pole for the real downwind work and know how to use it. I also have a heavy line with loops in it that I tie between the breat cleat and the stern cleat and I have a snatch block I can move between loops. This is my version of a jib car on the raill. I use this off the wind to better trim the jib, and open up the slot.

In two weeks, I'm going cruising on TRIUMPH to the Bahamas for two months. That's where the 350 really shines. We love her for her cruising performance.

I plan to do the Fall Rumgatta at the Tampa Sailing Squadron in early October. You are welcome to join me for that. Drop me a note in September.

Bill

[wolfe10]

Bill,

Be sure to get your fill of lobster as soon as you get over there-- suspect lobster season will close the end of March as usual.

Then how will you invite your spiny friends to lunch?

BTW, where are you headed this year.

Brett
In Arizona this winter in the motorhome.

[TBOT422]

Brett,

We don't have a whisker pole. We once sailed with another couple that had one on a Hunter 28. I found it to be way too much work and even a little dangerous for normal use by a crusing couple. If I wanted to spend the money, I would opt for a cruising spinaker with a dousing sock which we've used extensively on a Hunter 36 over the years or possibly the new Doyle UPS that furls on its own luff rope. They're not a lot more expensive than the whisker pole, and much easier to use for a cruising couple.

One of the things I like about racing is it forces us to do things that I would not otherwise do when cruising. If I was in 4-6 knots of wind headed downwind on a cruise, I would furl the sails and fire up the engine. I was a power boater for nearly 30 years before we took up sailing, so I have no qualms about using the engine.

Bill,

I'm glad to hear that you feel that we can't sail to our rating in light air. Maybe part of the issue is the boat. That makes me feel better about my skills, although I am POSITIVE that I can improve my skills as well.

I'm interested in your line along the rail. If I understand what you're doing, you are essentially getting the jib sheet as far outboard as possible. I assume you re-route the jib sheets through the snatch block attached to one of the loops in the rope and then on to the winch. That gets the sheet further outboard than on the normal car routing. I was surprised by the position of the loops being between the mid-cleat? and the stern cleat. That seems to imply that the snatch block is further aft than I would have expected. I thought that the jib car needed to be as forward as possible when heading downwind. How big is your line? How long are the loops? Longer loops would seem to allow the snatch block to even get well outboard of the rub rail.

I do like the Catalina 350. As you say, it's a comfortable cruising boat which is what my real goal is. Racing is just an opportunity to try to become a better or more efficient cruiser. Here's a point of how 'comfortable' the Catalina is. Our previous sailing experience was on a Hunter 33 and a Hunter 36. My wife is quite sensitive to excessive heeling angles. On the Hunters we were normally reefing the main as soon as the wind hit 15 knots, and put the sails away entirely if they got anywhere near 25 knots. Earlier this Dec., we went out for a short afternoon day sail in about 20 knots. I started very conservatively with just a slightly reefed main and no jib. We were moving along at about 3.5 to 4 knots, but the boat wasn't balanced at all. I decided I'd let out just enough jib to balance the helm, and presto we were off at 6.5 to 7 knots and very comfortable. My wife even said "You know, when we start cruising full time, I think the best sailing days are going to be the 20 knot days". Remarkable! A second story was the recent race. At the end of the race we were close hauled in 22 knots of wind with both sails all the way out. My wife would never have been comfortable in the Hunters in 22 knots with all the sails up.

A great boat for cruising, but I know I can get better.

Thanks for all the comments.

[Chips Ahoy!]

I tried to get polar diagrams a few years ago without any luck. But then I would have to learn how to understand it.
I was reading through your "racing" thread. You are right, our 350 is a fat bottomed girl. She drifts in winds <5 and loves anything from 15-25 or so. She also cuts through a chop sturdily.

One modification that I made a few years ago was to install Garhauer's adjustable genny cars. You can adjust them yourself from the helm without disturbing the Admiral and (more importantly) without drama. It is fun to fiddle with their position and learn how the boat responds.

We can never be really competitive racers on our 350 unless we rig a pole and have enough crew to to the foredeck pole dance.

I race regularly but not on Chips. She is not rigged for it. We do the "family" type races and if the wind is light...we take pictures and snack.

The polar diagrams would be interesting...but the adjustable genny cars are fun and educational.

Regards,
-george

[Triumph]

I've had both cruising shoots and whisker poles. I have developed a strong preference for the pole. A big reason is storage when cruising. The pole is out of the way on deck. I can rig and take down the pole faster, and it seems like less trouble over all. A safe way to use the pole, especially in high winds, is to furl the jib, set the pole, and unfurl the jib as much as you want. (reefed if you'd like) It's simple, safe, and controlled.

Bill
TRIUMPH

[Richard Thabit]

I wish I had a polar diagram as well, since I attempt to club race in Haverstraw Bay on the Hudson River.
A few years back after failing to get the boat moving in light air and downwind, I was convinced by fellow racers to purchase a whisker pole and change from my 135% to a 150% jib. While I do not win in my fleet, the performance is far better than before these changes.
My PHRF rating is 171 and I am in a fleet with 30-40+ length boats ranging from J 28 to Hunter 34's, 38's and Beneteau 36,40, etc.
PHRF is only a guide at best and the C350's simply don't like light air, so we do better in 15+ knot winds. We have raced with full sail in 20 knots with gusts of 24-28 knots by dropping the traveler to spill the main. The C350 is much less tender that the Beneteau 362 and Hunter 34, but they both go downwind better in light air.
The PHRF base for my wing keel C350 is 150. I then get points added for the following:
6 for roller furling mainsail
3 for roller furling jib
6 for electing a maximum crew weight of only 900 pounds
6 for agreeing to maximum whisker pole open length of 14.4 feet.
I have an Autoprop which counts as folding, so no addition
Total of 150 + 21 = 171

My main problem is being short handed. I believe that a total crew of 4 is ideal and many times it's just me and one sailing friend. Not good for racing, but still fine to be on the water Wednesday evenings.
I would like to hear of other C350 PHRF ratings.
Richard
C350 #111
Three Sheets

[TBOT422]

That's why I would think that a set of polar diagrams would be helpful. I was pretty dismayed at the light wind/down wind performance I was able to get relative to other boats. A polar diagram could help me understand how much of the performance is boat related and how much is my inexperience. I happened to stumble across a polar diagram for a C380, and it implies that it should be able to make about 3 knots straight down wind in a 6 knot breeze. Whereas if you headed up to about 140 degrees boat speed would increase to about 4.2 knots and VMG would increase to around 3.25 knots. My guess is the 350 is well below those numbers.

A 'set of polar' plots would also help us make decisions as to how we want to spend our money to improve performance. As each different sail configuration would have different polar plots even for the same boat. Does a whisker pole/assymetrical spinnaker/150 genoa/etc. provide the best performance for the money for the type of sailing each of us want to do? From my understanding, a set of polars for various sail configurations would help us in that decision.

Thanks for all the comments, I think I've learned some tricks that I want to go try before plunking down another 2 or 3 boat dollars.

[PHerzfeld]

did anyone ever find Polar Diagrams for the C350?