135 genoa versus 155 genoa

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TBOT422
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135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by TBOT422 »

I'm interested in those of you who have used both the 135 genoa and the 155 genoa and what kind of change in performance you were able to get between the 2 sails in similar conditions. For example with 10 knots of wind on a beam reach SOG was X with the 135 and Y with the 155. Close hauled? Broad Reach? 5 knots? 15 knots?

I presently have the 135 and am looking to improve SOG particularly in lighter wind conditions. I am considering the Doyle furling UPS and would like to have an idea of how much performance $3K will buy me. The Doyle UPS is similar in size to the 155 genoa (594 sq feet versus 556 sq feet), so I would expect it to have at least as much of an improvement as the 155 genoa. Actually it should be better than the 155 genoa particularly in light winds. Before I plunk down another 3 boat units, I would like to have a feeling as to whether I might get a 10% improvement in SOG or a 50% improvement in SOG.

If you happen to have the Doyle UPS or any of the other similar furling Code zeros, I'd also be interested what you think of them.

Thanks
Gary & Janet
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R.B.
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by R.B. »

I cannot answer your question since I have not tried the 135 myself, however another consideration you might want to think about is type and weight of sail cloth. I own the 150 genoa that came from Catalina. It is however, not a very good light wind sail. It is far too heavy and collapses easily in light winds especially downwind. On the other hand, it is very strong and allows me to sail in up to 20 knot winds before needing to reef.
Ralph

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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by TBOT422 »

R.B.

That's correct. I believe the Doyle UPS is made from 1.5 oz Nylon versus the Dacron of the standard Catalina sails which should make it better suited for light wind conditions. Most spinnakers or Asymetricals use either 1.5 oz or 0.75 oz nylon or similar light weight fabrics.

So no one has used both the standard 135 genoa and the 155 genoa to be able to compare performance differentials just based on square footage of sail area in similar wind conditions?
Gary & Janet
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BillBerner
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by BillBerner »

While i can't comment on differences between the 2in light winds, i can guarantee that the 135's sail shape will hold up betterwhen reefed, and itll still be effective reefed down a lot smaller than the 150 could.
From my pov tht akes the 135 the choice i'd make.
Easier to fly a ups or drifter when conditions are light, than rig a storm sail when its stinky.
Just my opinion
Bill Berner
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by TBOT422 »

Thanks Bill,

That helps confirm my thinking about the UPS (or similar). We're relatively happy with the 135 in moderate to heavy winds and have been quite comfortable being able to get some sort of sail shape when slightly reefed. But the 350 seems to need more power in light winds, particularly down wind. The UPS or drifter seems to address that need over a broader range of sail points than an asymetric, but I was hoping to get some idea of how much performance might improve just due to the additional square footage of sail area before I plunked down another 3 boat units. (An asym or whisker pole are less expensive options). I mean if I'm only going to get an improvement from 3.0 Kn to 3.3 Kn in 8 knots of wind on a broad reach, then maybe it isn't worth spending the money. On the other hand if SOG goes from 3.0 Kn to 4.0 Kn by just adding sail area of a bigger genoa, then I am sure the UPS will be better than that and would be well morth the money.
Gary & Janet
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by BillBerner »

Gary & Janet
I've been taking a close look at asyms lately, with plans to buy soon.

The worry I have about the Doyle UPS is the claim that it it is usable from 33ish degrees all the way to straight downwind in any wind you're comfortable using it in. Seems like a mighty big claim. While a one size fits all solution is really attractive, the reality is probably that somethings gotta give somewhere or everybody would be making it.

If you haven't already, you might want to check this out: http://www.na.northsails.com/tabid/23017/Default.aspx

As usual, jmo.

BB
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by TBOT422 »

Bill,

I am well aware of the North G-2 Asym having used one for several years on a Hunter 36. A lot of fun and a great sail. Very easy to use for a cruising couple with a dousing sock.

I have no expectations that the UPS will perform well over the entire range of points as advertised. I expect it's operational range to be much like our current genoa with points of sail between 40 degrees and 140 degrees. You can get a little tighter in certain wind conditions, and you can go further off the wind if you're willing to furl the main to get to 170 degrees.

I look at the UPS as not much more than a 155 genoa made out of light weight material with a little more roach to improve downwind performance over a standard 155 genoa. I'm hoping it will perform a little better than a standard 155 genoa in light air. I'm hoping to be able to use the UPS in winds from 5 to 15 Kn much like you would use a standard genoa. Then stow it and use our 135 in winds from 10-20 Kn, probably begin reefing from 20 Kn plus.

I'm sure in an off-wind point, the North G-2 would outperform the UPS, but he UPS should still be functional at 50-60 degrees into the wind whereas the G-2 Asym would not. I havn't used one, but it seems that the UPS would be even easier to use than the Aym with a sock for a cruising couple. It's like everything boating, it's a compromise. Ideally with unlimited funds, it would be great to have both sails.
Gary & Janet
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by BillBerner »

with unlimited funds, only the 2????!!!!!
;)
Bill Berner
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by TBOT422 »

BTW,

I did get quotes from North Sails. The G-2 with a whopping 920 sq feet was priced at $3,098.72 with snuffer, and their furling Code zero (ND77LA) was priced at $3,411.16 (463 square feet).

The Doyle UPS (1.5 oz) was quoted at $2,795 and 594 square feet. The Doyle APC Asym (0.75 oz) was priced at $2,835 and 871 square feet.
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by BillBerner »

Thanks for sharing the quotes. Ouch!
I've stumbled on a 3 yr old North G3 with a snuffer with good if not perfect dimensions. .75 oz. Owner claims it's in "like new" condition. Only 1,250 asking.
If I pass on it - which is likely, don't think I want to spend the $$ right now, would you like the info.
Bill Berner
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by TBOT422 »

OK, I broke down and bought the Doyle UPS. We just got back from a 2-1/2 week cruise on the FL West Coast and had a chance to use it for the first time. Well, actually, Doyle in St. Pete had some difficulties getting it done before we left, but they were nice enough to deliver it to us enroute on the Manatee River. We couldn't have asked for better weather to fly it the first time. We entered Sarasota Bay headed south and had 3-5 Kn winds about 120 degrees off the bow. It couldn't get more benign to try out the new sail. We rigged it up the morning before we left anchorage at Longboat Pass. It was simple to unfurl, and my first reaction was WOW, it's huge!. It quickly filled with the light breeze and we were ghosting along at 2 to 2.5 knots. When we unfurled the main we added another 1/2 knot and glided along at 2-3 knots in a 3-5 knot breeze. I was impressed. Without this sail or an assymetrical, we would have been motoring.

Later in the trip we were able to sail it as close as 60 degrees to the wind, but it was clear I need to have a better means to attach the sheet blocks before I can truly test what the sail can do going into the wind.

On the leg from Venice to Boca Grande, we started out with winds off the port bow. As the sea breeze took over, we had to motor for awile and the wind continued to shift off our starboard bow. When it got to 90 degrees, it was time to furl the 135 and let the UPS out. We picked up speed as the UPS took hold. As the wind continued to shift to our stern, we ended up sailing virutally straight down wind with just the UPS at over 5 knots with an apparent wind of just under 10 knots directly on our stern. I estimated the UPS shaved about 45 minutes off the sail from Venice to Boca Grande. I'm sure an assymetrical would have done just as well or better, but furling the UPS is an absolute breeze, and you can just leave it there furled up until you want to unfurl it again, or take it down for the night (I wouldn't want to leave it furled and deployed for the night, in case a storm came up).

Unfortunately the rest of the trip involved being at anchor or heading directly into a 15 knot breeze, so it stayed in the bag. I'll post more over the summer as we have more opportunities to try it out in different conditions.
Gary & Janet
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nybor
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by nybor »

hello people.
I have a 0.75 oz Asymmetrical sail on order. When I bought the boat, I stupidly gave the spinnaker that came with it away! (don't ask)
Anyway, I still have the chute tube and "dousing thinkabob" the plastic cup.....

My question is, what more do I need to fly it?
thanks in advance for not laughing!

dave
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by DuncanMcMillan »

Dave, you will enjoy it very much in the light winds. You need a couple of padeyes mounted about as far back as you can on the deck plus a shackle for the bow. I put mine on the anchor roller and take it off when the sail is not being used.
I think I've seen some special bow fittings mentioned on this site and I'm sure you'll get input.
The sail should come with the sheets.........lots of it.
Have fun.
Duncan #248
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by TBOT422 »

Dave,

If you already have a dousing sock, when you get your asymmetrical, you will need a tack line and sheets of sufficient size and length. For the tack line, you will need a snatch block or similar attached to the bow or bow roller U-shaped hoop. Run the tack line through this block and back to the cockpit. If you have re-routed the standard Catalina genoa furling line down the gunnels, these pad eyes would be very useful for routing the tack line. Hopefully you have a spare cam cleat in the cockpit for the tack line. If not, you may wish to add one. For the sheets, you will need a block attached to the stern rail as low as possible on each side. You can buy clips that attach to the rails if there isn't something already there since the previous owner apparently flew a spinnaker of some sort. The spinnaker sheet can be either a continuous line or 2 separate sheets like your present genoa. There are pros and cons to either approach. If you use a continuous sheet, run it from the clew outside the life lines, through one of the sheet blocks, then across the transom inside the transom railing and the other sheet block, then back up to the clew outside the life lines. It will need sufficient length to let the spinnaker fly away from the boat and still have enough to wrap around one of the genoa sheet winches when flying it.

Good Luck
Gary & Janet
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nybor
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Re: 135 genoa versus 155 genoa

Post by nybor »

THANKS!
looking forward to trying it. I am considering entering the next America's Cup with it.

dave
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